UNIT-ON-CHAIN: Krista Kim on Technology and Digital Art for Mental Health

Unit-on-Chain is a podcast series from Unit London offering a ground for critical discussions for artists and thought leaders from the Web3 ecosystem.

Season 1 of our podcast coincides with In Our Code, a highly-anticipated exhibition of generative and digital art in partnership with AOI.

For Technology and Digital Art for Mental Health, the sixth episode of the series, join us in conversation with Krista Kim on the Techism movement, improving mental health through technology, and her new work, Bending Light, as part of Unit London’s exhibition, In Our Code.

LISTEN TO THE PODCAST HERE on Spotify and Apple.

Could you explain what Techism is?

Krista: My background is in PoliSci, I studied Political Science at UFT, and I just became so inspired by the works of Marshall McLuhan. Understanding media, the medium is the message, he basically came up with the “medium is a message” in the 70s in response to electronic media, the TV. And how it has affected human interaction, our greater social structures, political structures, economies, how it’s transformed our lives. And I’m basically applying that same theory now to Web3 and the introduction of blockchain into this new world that we’re entering into this culture.

So Techism, in fact, was a response actually to the smartphone. So in 2014, I wrote the Techism Manifesto because I saw that there was this mass adoption of these smartphones and apps. And the social media apps particular Facebook, Instagram and WhatsApp, and I was actually observing the psychological and the interpersonal changes in my behaviours.

I was also experiencing a lot of anxiety and I felt this narcissistic wave of adoption of these cultural shifts that we’re experiencing because people are always showing off and there weren’t really meaningful interactions. So we were, yes, we were more connected than ever with people all over the world and people we know and we had huge networks on these social media apps, but where’s the human connection? And I felt that the apps were not designed for the well being of our culture and our humanity. And that concerned me a lot, and I felt that the tech industry period, like Silicon Valley was so devoid of art, culture, and the discussion and the discourse of humanities in tech which is essential, right?

Because it is now the dominant form of media and communication that we use these smartphones and these apps, and yet there’s no discussion around, you know, is it good for us? What are the effects? And I knew that if I was experiencing FOMO and psychological issues from my device and I was becoming addicted to it, then billions of people around the world, we’re in essence feeling the same way. I felt that we need more art and more beauty, more of a discussion on where the technology should evolve as a mechanism for humanity, and only art can facilitate that kind of a discussion or that kind of an evolution of how the technology develops going into the future, so that’s why I wrote the manifesto in 2014. Lo and behold, here we are with Web3, so things move very quickly. 

What is your process of creating Mars House? What is the philosophy behind it?

This is very much influenced by my stay in Kyoto. I was so influenced by how zen can really as a philosophy permeate into the physical manifestations. So I wanted to create that same phenomenon in the Metaverse through game engine creation, and that’s how I created the Mars House. It was during the height of the Covid crisis, March of 2020, everyone’s under lockdown, I was homeschooling my two kids during lockdown. I was daydreaming about my dream home. So I decided to create this home in game engine so that I can visit it in VR and at the time I wasn’t particularly thinking of Metaverse, I was thinking more of VR. So I created this house on Unreal Engine 4 and it’s my dream home. Literally it’s zen design, my art substrates on the ceiling and floors, LED art installation, so the entire house is a work of art. Essentially, it’s a light art sculpture and immersive experience. 

It wasn’t until I discovered blockchain, because when I basically signed up for SuperRare as an artist, and I minted my first artwork and I was researching the entire landscape of NFTs and art at the time, everything was JPEG’s, everything was MP4s, 2D art displays on your screen, not even screens on your wall yet. But I’ve been doing installations on the wall and VR for a while, since 2017. So I thought, wow, the future of the Metaverse is built on NFTs because you can basically create a digital asset, they become building blocks in the Metaverse, like a house.

So I automatically was just compelled to mint the Mars House as the first 3D Metaverse house, real estate work of art in history. And the question I was asking society at the time, are we ready for a Metaverse future? Is the world ready to conceptualise, to jump into a Metaverse lifestyle and buy digital assets for the Metaverse? And that was my question.

Can you tell us about your project, Continuum?

Continuum is a digital zen garden. It is the zen experience that I had the privilege of experiencing at the Ryoanji Temple Garden, but in the digital landscape. The medium is the message and the zeitgeist is digital, meaning that the medium is digital, the screens, the technology.

We are now living in a new world where we basically see and understand things that are shining through light, through our devices into our retina, right? That’s it. And so, it’s not as effective even though it’s beautiful to read a book, but the more digitally native the generation is, the less they’ll read from a book.

The more they will want the experiential digital experience to gain information, it’s a medium shift. And so that is why I knew that in order to create zen and spatialise zen experiences, it has to be on screens and it has to be in the Metaverse for future generations. So it was just a decision based on that premise that the zeitgeist is digital, and the future is the metaverse. So I use giant screens, I rely on the visceral response that we naturally have to light, sound, healing sound frequencies, and I want to create this beautiful healing experience. So it really is a zen garden for the 21st century and beyond.

(Scroll to bottom for full transcript)

Krista Kim (b.1976) is a digital artist based between Toronto and Los Angeles. Her work is imbued with a sense of transcendence and meditation, created using a visual language that she intends to act as a digital consciousness. One of Kim’s most notable works is Mars House, the first digital house NFT, which sold on the SuperRare platform for 288 ETH, equivalent to $512,000 at the time. Often compared to surrealist depictions, her works exemplify the sublime, while she produces experiential zen moments through her multidimensional light installations. In 2014, Kim founded the Techism movement, which promotes the convergence of art and technology. In June 2022, the Los Angeles County Museum of Art acquired Continuum Los Angeles, her work which takes inspiration from the vibrant, ever-changing skies of the city, visually represented as a 40-minute gradient display.

Abigail Miller: Welcome Krista.

Krista Kim: Thank you so much for having me Abigail.

A: So to just get started for those listening, could you explain what Techism is? I think that will be the foundation of this conversation.

K: Of course, my background is in PoliSci, I studied Political Science at University of Toronto, and I just became so inspired by the works of Marshall McLuhan. Understanding media, the medium is the message, he basically came up with the “medium is a message” in the 70s in response to electronic media, the TV, and how it has affected human interaction, our greater social structures, political structures, economies, how it’s transformed our lives. I’m basically applying that same theory now to Web3 and the introduction of blockchain into this new world that we’re entering into this culture.

So Techism, in fact, was a response actually to the smartphone. So in 2014, I wrote the Techism Manifesto because I saw that there was this mass adoption of these smartphones and apps, the social media apps particularly Facebook, Instagram and WhatsApp. I was actually observing the psychological and the interpersonal changes in my behaviours.

I was also experiencing a lot of anxiety and I felt this narcissistic wave of adoption of these cultural shifts that we’re experiencing because people are always showing off and there weren’t really meaningful interactions. So yes, we were more connected than ever with people all over the world and people we know and we had huge networks on these social media apps, but where’s the human connection? And I felt that the apps were not designed for the wellbeing of our culture and our humanity. And that concerned me a lot, and I felt that the tech industry period, like Silicon Valley was so devoid of art, culture, and the discussion and the discourse of humanities in tech which is essential, right?

Because it is now the dominant form of media and communication that we use these smartphones and these apps, and yet there’s no discussion around whether it is good for us, what are the effects? And I knew that if I was experiencing FOMO and psychological issues from my device and I was becoming addicted to it, then billions of people around the world, we’re in essence feeling the same way. I felt that we need more art and more beauty, more of a discussion on where the technology should evolve as a mechanism for humanity, and only art can facilitate that kind of a discussion or that kind of an evolution of how the technology develops going into the future, so that’s why I wrote the manifesto in 2014. Lo and behold, here we are with Web3, so things move very quickly. 

A: And you’ve accomplished so much and, like you said, it moves so quickly and I think what’s the beauty of your work is you encourage people to slow down. And the one word that I love that’s used within your manifesto is the reconciliation of technology and innovation with the creation of art. In a prior conversation we talked about “a Buddha moment” and how you had a moment when you were travelling and reconnecting with your heritage. Can you talk about that a little bit and how it influences your work?

K: I lived in Asia from 2000 to 2015. And I lived in Korea, in Seoul, in Tokyo and Singapore. It was my stay in Japan when I really had my artistic epiphany. I lived there between 2005 to 2008 for three and half years. Living in Japan is amazing because it is so creative and there’s such a deep, rich cultural history of art.

It was in Kyoto at the Ryoanji Temple Garden where I had my artistic epiphany, and I discovered zen and the meaning of zen as an artistic practice, which informs what I do as a philosophy. Kyoto is the Living Metaverse. Kyoto is a place that has survived thousands of years in history and basically is a place of higher states of consciousness and zen philosophy that informs every culture and created manifestation of the place.

So when I was at the Ryoanji Temple Garden it’s such an iconic space, when I encountered it, it was very underwhelming and I was surprised at how famous it was because it was just a few rocks, lots of empty space, beautifully manicured, but I thought, what’s the big deal? Until I really sat with it for an hour, and then I finally had an epiphany because I began to meditate automatically just being in the presence of it, through the empty space and just the translation of the composition of the space was so powerful that it, made me feel meditative after a while, and I wasn’t practising meditation regularly at the time. 

So the calming effect made a huge impact on me. Then I realised that these monks over a thousand years ago, created this space for that intention to create a zen consciousness experience in the viewer, it’s experiential and it is a service to humanity, that stuck with me. 

So when I began to explore my artistic practice later in 2013 when I was enrolled in the Master’s program at Lasalle College of the Arts in Singapore, I began to reflect on our digital environment, which is another dimension of our reality. We are exposed to relentless distraction on our digital devices, and it’s in the quiet moments where we truly discover who we are. It’s essential to be a human being, I mean, it’s ancient Greek Axion, know thyself, but those moments of epiphany are in silence, in self-reflection, not a relentless distraction and FOMO and so I felt that I needed to create in my art, a space, a digital zen garden, if you will, for the 21st century and beyond, and to continue the zen philosophy into our digital age.

A: Amazing. And we’ll get to Mars House and Continuum here in a moment, but I wanna take a moment to dive into your practice as a digital artist in that journey, because you are a household name today in Web3, and you’ve done so much. How have you found that transition from the digital artists, like fine artists into the Web3 space, or were people receptive to this at the very beginning in your Master’s programme even?

K: Wow, this is the blessing and the curse of being an artist, you know, you do what you love, but you’re far ahead of society. So you have to have a brave face and believe in the conviction of your ideas because most of the time everybody will be against your ideas or mock them.

And that’s what I basically had to endure, which was, since my studies people didn’t believe in the veracity of digital as an art medium, it wasn’t seen as a serious medium. People were still learning painting and sculpture and performance art and all these wonderful traditional practices with deep history in schools, especially the Master’s program that I was in in Singapore.

So it was a real battle for me to really not only find my voice, but to actually have my voice heard and to be taken into a serious context as an artist. But the good thing is that I basically was practising meditation and at that time when I was enrolled in the program, my art became therapeutic to me. It really was. I was going through a very, very hostile divorce and there was so much stress and depression in my life at that time, and art saved my life. I was using digital as a medium. I used to paint, I entered the program as a painter, but it was during my meditation practice that I had the intuitive nudge to stop painting and to pursue art in the digital medium, because light is new ink. It’s very Marshall McLuhan, it’s very zeitgeist, and I continued from there.

There’s a continuation to this because it’s not only that, in the art world, digital wasn’t seen seriously at the time, that was like 2012. It was really as I was learning about Web2 and surveillance capitalism, how companies were stealing our data, essentially violating our human rights to data sovereignty.

All of our data, we should own and self custody, these companies are taking it from us because that is the new oil, they take it and they monetise them. They make billions and if not trillions of dollars on our data. I found that really sad, it’s only because there was no architecture in place for people to own data. Data was not protected, there’s no blockchain at the time. 

Then at the same time as a digital artist, that also means that your file as a digital artist is cheap, because it’s abundant that you could basically copy it forever and people can have copies of your art. But where can you prove the provenance of it?

Well, blockchain solved that problem, right? So blockchain is basically the new architecture, the new technology that not only protects art that’s digital, and its provenance and its rarity, but also protects the future of human rights from a data perspective and data sovereignty, and that’s what really interests me in Web3.

A: Definitely, and I think there’s so much metaphor as well in Mars House, and that’s what I wanna dive into because for the listeners, Mars House exists in the Metaverse and I have an Oculus sitting right next to me and I keep on looking at it and I was just thinking like we should have done this with the Oculus and done the podcast in Mars House. I was looking back on this… 

K: Oh, Abigail. Yeah, for sure

A: If we can do another podcast there as well. 

K: We can.

A: But can you go through the process of building Mars House and the philosophy behind it?

K: So this is still very much influenced by my stay in Kyoto. I was so influenced by how zen can really as a philosophy permeate into the physical manifestations. So I wanted to create that same phenomenon in the Metaverse through game engine creation, and that’s how I created the Mars House. It was during the height of the Covid crisis, March of 2020, everyone’s under lockdown, I’m in my lockdown in the condo with my two kids, homeschooling. I was like, okay, I am daydreaming about my dream home. So I decided to create this home in game engine so that I can visit it in VR and at the time I wasn’t particularly thinking of Metaverse, I was thinking more of VR, right? So I created this house on Unreal Engine 4 and it’s my dream home. Literally it’s zen design, my art substrates on the ceiling and floors, LED art installation, so the entire house is a work of art. Essentially, it’s a light art sculpture and immersive experience. 

It wasn’t until I discovered blockchain, because when I basically signed up for SuperRare as an artist, and I minted my first artwork and I was researching the entire landscape of NFTs and art at the time, everything was JPEG’s, everything was MP4s, 2D art displays on your screen, not even screens on your wall yet. But I’ve been doing installations on the wall and VR for a while, since 2017. So I thought, wow, the future of the Metaverse is built on NFTs because you can basically create a digital asset, they become building blocks in the Metaverse, like a house. It’s like, wow, I already have a house, the Mars House. 

So I automatically was just compelled to mint the Mars House as the first 3D Metaverse house, real estate work of art in history. And the question I was asking society at the time, are we ready for a Metaverse future? Is the world ready to conceptualise, to jump into a Metaverse lifestyle and buy digital assets for the Metaverse? And that was my question.

A: Yeah. And I think the beauty as well as with Mars House is that it made so many people question the direction of technology of blockchain with art, and more so the tech side, like how do we mint things and what’s the capacity? It really challenged a lot of people to view what would be possible.

And also I think it witnessed a moment with Covid, that brings me to the next conversation topic Continuum, which has been such a beautiful project to see grow alongside you and go around all of the world, and for those listeners, can you give a summary of what Continuum is? 

K: Continuum is a digital zen garden. It is the zen experience that I had the privilege of experiencing at the Ryoanji Temple Garden, but in the digital landscape. The medium is the message and the zeitgeist is digital, meaning that the medium is digital, the screens, the technology.

We are now living in a new world where we basically see and understand things that are shining through light, through our devices into our retina, right? That’s it. And so, it’s not as effective even though it’s beautiful to read a book, but the more digitally native the generation is, the less they’ll read from a book.

The more they will want the experiential digital experience to gain information, it’s a medium shift. And so that is why I knew that in order to create zen and spatialise zen experiences, it has to be on screens and it has to be in the Metaverse for future generations. So it was just a decision based on that premise that the zeitgeist is digital, and the future is the metaverse. So I use giant screens, I rely on the visceral response that we naturally have to light, sound, healing sound frequencies, and I want to create this beautiful healing experience. So it really is a zen garden for the 21st century and beyond.

A:  Yeah. And one of the words in our last conversation we had that you used to also describe this project was Harbinger. And I just love if you can also tell the audience your theory of using beauty, health and wellness as like a harbinger of the new technological age?

K: Exactly, so, what I believe is that once we have more art and more humanities in not only the visual discourse, but you know, the actual evolution of how the technology evolves through time people will actually use the technology for humanity and for wellbeing as a tool, if you will.

So, just as I converted the screen into a mechanism of healing and wellbeing we should all be looking at technology as a tool to better ourselves, to make our lives better, to enrich our souls and our minds with knowledge and to basically upgrade the way that we have been learning, the way that we have been interacting for thousands of years.

So I think going into the future, the next shift of human civilization will be to use technology for the greater good, for our wellbeing and for education.

A: For sure, and that segues into, I believe, and correct me if I’m wrong, two pieces were collected by LACMA this last summer, which is extremely exciting and beautiful to witness. Especially because you were one of the first womens of Web3 to be collected by LACMA. It has been such a moment, I think to push that relationship. Can you talk a little bit about the summer and what has been happening for you?

K: Thank you so much, I am extremely honoured to be, and it gives me goosebumps still to be in the same museum of James Terrell, Robert Irwin, Mary Corse, Mark Rothko. These are the legends that have really informed my practice also and just to see the evolution of art and where it can go.

For me, last summer, it was June 1st when LACMA hosted a dinner. Paris Hilton and Carter Reum are now actually part of a fund. They created an NFT fund, a digital art fund to support NFT artists for the LACMA collection. And they hosted this dinner in my honour for Continuum.

So we had a dinner and it was just an incredible experience. It was like a dream where my collaborator Jeff Schroeder of the Smashing Pumpkins who did the music score to the Mars House NFT, he came and he played live. He played a beautiful meditative piece in front of a large screen.

And we had 80 of the board of trustees of the museum there, including Carter and Paris and it was just magical to have Michael Govan, the CEO there, and Dhyandra Lawson is a curator, our discussions were truly about supporting diversity in Web3, art and the voices that were not always heard throughout art history.

And now with Web3, it truly is a dawn of a new era in terms of access to the audiences of creative talents, no matter where your background is, where you live, your sex or gender, and whatever. You basically now can have access to the collectors and, to the recognition of your work in Web3, which is a wonderful shift culturally. I think the more institutions embrace Web3 and NFT art it really is the leadership and the vision that we need going into the future of a more inclusive and fair art world, and a better society in general.

A: Definitely. And I think an institution like LACMA in LA that was like the foundation for the light and space movement to collect your work is just a perfect continuation of art history as well as bringing in the conversation that’s needing to be having about inclusivity as well as what’s the future of Web3 in digital culture as well as the culture of humanity. This brings me into the next topic of collaboration, because a lot of your work is collaborative, specifically Bending Light in the show, currently here at Unit London. If you wanna talk about collaboration in your overarching artistic practice?

K: Collaboration is key. Web3 is all about co-creation, collaboration, and community. What we need to do in order to have more artists in Web3, because not everyone is a 3D renderer, to be a technician of these incredible softwares that takes years to learn. Not everyone is an expert in that. So what I always encourage in the Techism manifesto, I always encourage artists, no matter what medium you create art in, collaborate with engineers, collaborate with technologists, collaborate with tech companies to create art.

It’s the only way that we’re actually going to create new ideas. It’s these intersections and it’s the intersection of art, science, technology that’s really gonna bring us to the new age of human civilization, the new opportunities. Because in the past, all of us were siloed into roles in our post-industrial society.

But now what we are is we are fluid, and fluidity is key. Collaboration, co-creation, community. This is the future, so of course, I think that the singular artists that create everything from their atelier, their studio and painting, that’s great. But the future is in collaborating with diverse talents and verticals to create something new because that’s the only way we’re going to advance as a civilization.

A: Yeah, and can you talk about Bending Light? So to the listeners, Krista Kim, I would say in your artistic practice is not a generative artist per se, but this is a generative artwork in collaboration and can you speak to that extent?

K: Of course. I basically have been creating algorithmic paintings very much, Rothko-esque, if you will, I’ve been told. I don’t wanna compare myself to Rothko, but I love the colour fields, and creating the digital colour fields of light that make me feel good.

And so what I’ve done is I’ve compiled artworks that I’ve created and I collaborated with Ethan Murrow, who is a real expert video artist, and now works with generative software in his work. And so we make a dynamic duo, we’ve done so many projects together, and we’ve been collaborating for many years now.

I basically send the artwork and then I direct the composition, the movement, the speed and, the feel and the look and the direction, but it is also through his input on his expertise with the software that really helps. He’s incredible, and he does incredible display art for the dj sets for different artists all over Europe and he’s been doing it for a very long time. So our collaboration’s very special and I’m very proud of Bending Light. I think that it is one of our favourite pieces, in fact. And we wanna continue creating more pieces of the similar theme, but really, I mean, adore our friend and we work very well together, so I’m very honoured to collaborate with him as always.

A: Oh, that makes me so excited because I wish everyone could just be transported here to Unit London right now and see the whole exhibition, In Our Code. But your piece specifically for those who haven’t been able to see it here in person, you walk downstairs into Unit London to the lower ground floor and it’s all black. We try to take all the senses away and just have you focus on the input/output relationship. So you’re weaving through the exhibition, that’s all traditionally generative artists in the practice. Then you get to Krista’s work at the very end and it makes you slow down completely. You have to stop because of the duration of the piece. And it makes all the visitors just slow down and then reflect on the whole point of the show, which is the “In Our Code”, the reflection of, who is the creator? Is it us or is it the machine? Kind of that religious allegory “who is in power” and I think as the team here it’s been so fun to see visitors interact with your work. You know, some people have laid on the ground, some people are sitting. And that’s the beauty of your work, it makes people stop. And I wanna talk about is there a perfect way in your mind to experience your work? Or do you think, is it much more personal to each person?

K: I don’t like to dictate how people should or should not observe the work, just as when you encounter the zen garden in Ryoanji Temple, there are protocols, you’re not supposed to lie down there and stuff, but everyone has their own moment and we need that.

I want people to have their own experience through the work. It’s the magic of the silence and slowing down where it’s a co-creation with the viewer, and that’s what you need. And that’s why it’s so valuable, it’s because, the more art that we’re exposed to it is a co-creative process and the more people see it, they’ll never be the same, something has changed and that kind of a revelation or that kind of experience is always a positive experience for everyone. I want the maximum amount of people around the world to see this piece, I guess that’s what it is. It’s all about scale, and that’s why I’m doing this tour, that’s why I’m so passionate about showing it to as many people as possible and to just create.

Only 15% of the world meditates.And I’m truly a huge advocate of meditation. Only 15% meditates, and that’s fine. What about the rest? I wanna reach the rest through the work so that they embark on their own journey or they have this experience on their own. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a meditation practice, but it could just be through the art and the experience of the art itself, that visceral, primal, programmed experience that we have through light and through sound, so that’s all it is really.

A: Yeah, and I have to say to all the listeners, please go and see one of Krista’s Continuum pieces because when you encounter it, you can’t help but not stop and reflect, because of the light and sound, but also the scale. So it just makes you in awe of the tech, but it’s such a beautiful zen moment as well.

We’re getting up to the very end here, Krista, I just wanted to know if there’s any closing comments for you or been on this journey, because you’ve been one of the first artists with us as well from NFT and so you’ve seen it all with us and I just wanted to say thank you. 

K: Well, I wanna thank your team. First of all, congratulations on organising such an historic show, and congratulations also to AOI, my dear collector and supporter of the artists. I have never felt so supported as an artist ever, and I feel so moved by how Web3 is so beautifully embraced by this new generation. 

And it is the future, and I really feel that we are just at the most nascent period, not only development of this technology, because it will evolve and evolve to something much greater, much more revolutionary than we can ever imagine, especially going into the Metaverse. But, I just know that this show in particular is really demarcating a very historic point in history of art and culture that we will reflect upon and say, okay, it was at Unit London and this team recognises the significance of this period in time with AOI. I must congratulate you on having the forethought and the vision to bring it together because it’s making waves.

A: Yeah, and thank you. So something we do at the very end with everyone on this podcast is we have a set of questions we ask each guest, and the only thing we ask, we try to make it a little more difficult, is to answer it in one word or one sentence, and they’re purposely ambiguous as well so interpret as you may.

K: Okay. 

A: So the first question is, what inspires you in this space?

K: Community, the empowerment of community to change the world.

A: Yes. And then what is one artist you’d love to own an NFT by?

K: I would love to own a Tyler Hobbs.

A: Same, what is one technological advancement you think this space needs?

K: Basically what’s coming is an open decentralised high fidelity Metaverse capability, and once that happens and we also have the wearables that are powerful enough to present 3D spacialised experiences to scale, then the world will change.

A: For sure, and our last one, what does In Our Code mean to you?

K: Code is nature, code is an extension of the language of the universe. Algorithms are nature. So in fact, digital and code, In Our Code, everything is code. Code is nature, code is a part of us, code is consciousness, and I believe that the development of Web3 and quantum computing will only elevate our humanity and create a huge paradigm shift.

The advancement of the new age of human civilization as Web3, but truly as a transcendent cultural shift that will be peaceful, it will be efficient, it will be fair, and it will be facilitated through AI and code.

A: Amazing. And thank you so much, Krista. It’s always such a joy to talk with you and you’re eloquent as ever, and I can’t wait to see what you do next, and hopefully we’ll be announcing soon our little project in Singapore as well. So for the listeners, stay tuned for that, and thank you again Krista 

K: Oh, I have one, fun announcement. I’m going to be on the cover of Harper’s Bazaar Art. 

A: Yes. 

K: The next issue, so Bending Light is on the cover, my dear.

A: Oh my goodness. Okay, we’re gonna have to chat more about this, but for all the listeners, make sure you go and see this, and Krista I just can’t say this enough that Krista is a force in this space as well as you champion so many people that don’t have the voice right now, and you’re really pushing those conversations, so we can’t thank you enough as well for that, and so just again, thank you for being here. 

K: Thank you for your support, brilliant show, thank you. Congratulations.